Comments on: Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-Vax Propaganda From The AVN http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/ The official site of the Merseyside Skeptics Society Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:03:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Tabs http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-3261 Tabs Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:50:22 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-3261 I was wrong- Jason provided the link lol! (credit where it's due) I was wrong- Jason provided the link lol! (credit where it’s due)

]]> By: Tabs http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-3260 Tabs Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:13:24 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-3260 Hi, just read this after getting a link from Peter T. Just wanted to correct you on something. (sorry!) You state that "the measles virus is in the vaccine (de-activated and dead, of course)" Actually the measles virus in vaccines isn't dead, it is a attenuated (partially live) vaccine. Still as safe as can be (can never say 100% of course however) but this statement will get you a lot of 'LULz' from anti-vaxxers. Great post otherwise :) Hi, just read this after getting a link from Peter T.
Just wanted to correct you on something. (sorry!)

You state that “the measles virus is in the vaccine (de-activated and dead, of course)”

Actually the measles virus in vaccines isn’t dead, it is a attenuated (partially live) vaccine. Still as safe as can be (can never say 100% of course however) but this statement will get you a lot of ‘LULz’ from anti-vaxxers.

Great post otherwise :)

]]> By: Blog Anthology Final Selections! | Young Australian Skeptics http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-3072 Blog Anthology Final Selections! | Young Australian Skeptics Mon, 01 Mar 2010 01:14:38 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-3072 [...] Hans The Crime-​​Fighting Horse Is Getting Nervous The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN Rational Moms — I’m not a skeptical celebrity, how can I be involved? Bad [...] [...] Hans The Crime-​​Fighting Horse Is Getting Nervous The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN Rational Moms — I’m not a skeptical celebrity, how can I be involved? Bad [...]

]]> By: Skeptical Blog Anthology  —  Seventy-​​Five Entries And More Needed! | Young Australian Skeptics http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-2073 Skeptical Blog Anthology  —  Seventy-​​Five Entries And More Needed! | Young Australian Skeptics Mon, 19 Oct 2009 01:21:45 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-2073 [...] of Life — Mama Don’t Take my Heike Crabs Awaaaay The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Psychic’ Joe Power and the Two-​​Man-​​Mob My [...] [...] of Life — Mama Don’t Take my Heike Crabs Awaaaay The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Psychic’ Joe Power and the Two-​​Man-​​Mob My [...]

]]> By: Skeptical Blog Anthology — We’re Over Fifty Entries Already! | Young Australian Skeptics http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1968 Skeptical Blog Anthology — We’re Over Fifty Entries Already! | Young Australian Skeptics Sat, 19 Sep 2009 14:36:51 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1968 [...] of Life — Mama don’t take my heike crabs awaaaay The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Psychic’ Joe Power and the Two-​​Man-​​Mob My [...] [...] of Life — Mama don’t take my heike crabs awaaaay The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Compulsory Ignorance: More Anti-​​Vax Propaganda From The AVN The Merseyside Skeptics Society — Psychic’ Joe Power and the Two-​​Man-​​Mob My [...]

]]> By: Peter Tierney http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1928 Peter Tierney Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:45:45 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1928 Hey Marsh, Given the subject matter, and the fact that we repeatedly bang our heads against a brick wall, I thought you were actually quite reasonable and polite. The AVN and their cohorts argue from some upper case paradise from where they can launch attack squads, spew forth and then retreat. They have the integrity of someone strapping on a vest. Regards again, Peter Tierney. Hey Marsh,
Given the subject matter, and the fact that we repeatedly bang our heads against a brick wall, I thought you were actually quite reasonable and polite. The AVN and their cohorts argue from some upper case paradise from where they can launch attack squads, spew forth and then retreat. They have the integrity of someone strapping on a vest.
Regards again,
Peter Tierney.

]]> By: Marsh http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1927 Marsh Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:31:13 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1927 @Phil I do take your point about the emotive language and how it possibly removes a sense of balance, and to be honest after I wrote it I did consider toning down the outrage and vitriol. The reason I left in the language as it was is that where it comes to the outright lies and propaganda of the likes of the AVN (who also believe that Swine Flu is a conspiracy and question the link between HIV and AIDS) are concerned, to give them an even playing field is to give them credibility and legitimacy. For me, if Meryl Dorey is willing to go on TV and tell the world that nobody dies of whooping cough, sitting in the same room as parents of a child who died of whooping cough, she and her organisation forego the right to legitimate debate - if they're only bringing dangerous lies to the table, to engage them at a cold and clear scientific level is to give their point of view undue respect. I'm not denying there is room for debate over specific vaccines when there is real evidence to suggest there could be a negative side effect. However, making up reasons out of whole cloth based on nothing at all, and using those reasons to question the legitimacy of a vaccine that's been proven safe time and time again, is just dangerous. Plus, the claims that measles is a gift from God and is actually beneficial to children? That's what really boiled my blood. Sorry if the language and tone offended, but where false science directly leads to the deaths of children, I find it hard to restrain my emotions. Rest assured, normal reasonable-toned skepticism will resume in the coming articles, but this was something I couldn't let the AVN get away with. Marsh @Phil

I do take your point about the emotive language and how it possibly removes a sense of balance, and to be honest after I wrote it I did consider toning down the outrage and vitriol. The reason I left in the language as it was is that where it comes to the outright lies and propaganda of the likes of the AVN (who also believe that Swine Flu is a conspiracy and question the link between HIV and AIDS) are concerned, to give them an even playing field is to give them credibility and legitimacy.

For me, if Meryl Dorey is willing to go on TV and tell the world that nobody dies of whooping cough, sitting in the same room as parents of a child who died of whooping cough, she and her organisation forego the right to legitimate debate – if they’re only bringing dangerous lies to the table, to engage them at a cold and clear scientific level is to give their point of view undue respect.

I’m not denying there is room for debate over specific vaccines when there is real evidence to suggest there could be a negative side effect. However, making up reasons out of whole cloth based on nothing at all, and using those reasons to question the legitimacy of a vaccine that’s been proven safe time and time again, is just dangerous. Plus, the claims that measles is a gift from God and is actually beneficial to children? That’s what really boiled my blood.

Sorry if the language and tone offended, but where false science directly leads to the deaths of children, I find it hard to restrain my emotions. Rest assured, normal reasonable-toned skepticism will resume in the coming articles, but this was something I couldn’t let the AVN get away with.

Marsh

]]> By: Phil Morton http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1926 Phil Morton Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:42:09 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1926 Initially i thought great, skeptics!...hmmm there are prob points to educate me here but here is some of the text : "deceitful, weaselly,ignorant, pseudomedical crap, insultingly and pathetically manipulative, gaudy, sensationalist, fear-mongeringly, utter utter bullshit, " what happened to evidence based dialogue I was promised: this language is emotive and un-helpful. There is in my opinion a debate to be had here, emotive language, making the subject personal does not help to open it up. I maybe short on detail, but i remember a vaccine being withdrawn by the NHS/government because the "side-effects" or maybe collateral damage was assessed to be too "risky". Prob. because of the reality and threat of insurance/legal actions would win and cost them a heap of money. Forget the children involved. Maybe we should be skeptical of people wearing white coats sometimes? The anti vaccination movement like this article can be over-emotional, some of it spokes-people may just be plain wrong, but that does not mean there is not an issue here. The language, i highlight above makes me emotional respond: this guy has made his mind-up; this is not an open debate, this is not a skeptic but another set of rules/uniform we must obey. Again: my loss there is prob good stuff in here, but IMHO, when isay he "makes his mind up": that is what i think we all do;.....tbc Initially i thought great, skeptics!…hmmm there are prob points to educate me here but here is some of the text : “deceitful, weaselly,ignorant, pseudomedical crap, insultingly and pathetically manipulative, gaudy, sensationalist, fear-mongeringly, utter utter bullshit, ” what happened to evidence based dialogue I was promised: this language is emotive and un-helpful. There is in my opinion a debate to be had here, emotive language, making the subject personal does not help to open it up. I maybe short on detail, but i remember a vaccine being withdrawn by the NHS/government because the “side-effects” or maybe collateral damage was assessed to be too “risky”. Prob. because of the reality and threat of insurance/legal actions would win and cost them a heap of money. Forget the children involved. Maybe we should be skeptical of people wearing white coats sometimes? The anti vaccination movement like this article can be over-emotional, some of it spokes-people may just be plain wrong, but that does not mean there is not an issue here. The language, i highlight above makes me emotional respond: this guy has made his mind-up; this is not an open debate, this is not a skeptic but another set of rules/uniform we must obey. Again: my loss there is prob good stuff in here, but IMHO, when isay he “makes his mind up”: that is what i think we all do;…..tbc

]]> By: Jason http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1925 Jason Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:22:26 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1925 Marsh, you are my new anti-antivax hero. I've been fighting with the AVN for some time now and I'm really glad to have yet another pommie on the case with us. If you're ever in Sydney, I owe you beer. Marsh, you are my new anti-antivax hero.

I’ve been fighting with the AVN for some time now and I’m really glad to have yet another pommie on the case with us. If you’re ever in Sydney, I owe you beer.

]]> By: Peter Tierney http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/2009/09/compulsory-ignorance-more-anti-vax-propaganda-from-the-avn/comment-page-1/#comment-1924 Peter Tierney Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:11:23 +0000 http://www.merseysideskeptics.org.uk/?p=209#comment-1924 Thanks for the time you spent on this story. It's time that we should be spending enjoying life, I know, but unfortunately people like the AVN exist, and we must counter these silly and deceptive ideologues whenever we come across them. Regards, Peter Tierney Thanks for the time you spent on this story. It’s time that we should be spending enjoying life, I know, but unfortunately people like the AVN exist, and we must counter these silly and deceptive ideologues whenever we come across them.

Regards,
Peter Tierney

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