Be Reasonable: Episode #057 – Jared Taylor

Joining Marsh this episode is race realist Jared Taylor, founder of the white identity website and magazine American Renaissance.

  1. #1 by Alex on January 21, 2019 - 16:17

    This was just one bad-faith argument after another from Jared. Not exactly the intellectually rigorous podcast I’m used to listening to.

  2. #2 by Max on January 21, 2019 - 17:04

    I hope you knew what you were doing, putting this up. I disagree entirely with giving platforms to fascists, even to fascists that are canny enough to not admit they’re fascists.

  3. #3 by Hilde on January 21, 2019 - 18:56

    Please don’t have fascists on again. They have no interest in actually have an honest debate. They see podcasts like this as a way to spread their poisonous ideas, and sadly, you’re allowing them to. People like Jarod Taylor are simply a waste of space.

  4. #4 by Dan Jacobs on January 21, 2019 - 19:51

    I think we need to hear these people so we can Reggie not only their awful beliefs, but their arguments. Jared wants people to think his obvious racism isn’t a problem, and he would introduce it as such, but we need to hear the details in order to be able to point out all that is wrong with it. He hates liberals, period, and has, what would sounds to far too many, as correct arguments, and we need to hear them do we can more easily and clearly refute them.

    Thank you. This was difficult to listen to but I’m glad you did this.

  5. #5 by Citizen Gold on January 22, 2019 - 02:42

    I have to agree with Dan Jacobs. This was a difficult listen. There were many, many times* where I was conflicted with just listening to this guy thinking “I’ve heard enough” but due to the nature of this podcast I heard him out.

    Jared, if you ever read these comments I’d just like to say that you are actually a racist. While I can see how someone could see the points you’re making as being valid that would only be because they are also xenophobic and racist also.

    I know you don’t like that label, but it is an accurate one. If you don’t like people calling you racist, stop being racist.

    Marsh, I don’t know how you manage to do it. There really needs to be a Patreon only podcast (Be Reasonably Skeptical? 😉 ) where you give us an insight into what you were thinking as the Be Reasonable guests are standing on your soapbox.

    * okay, all of the time.

  6. #6 by malcolm armstrong on January 22, 2019 - 03:50

    There has never been a riot in the U.K. prior to mass immigration: fact!

    White People don’t riot.

    Gin anyone?

  7. #7 by Patrick McGinnes on January 22, 2019 - 06:29

    So here’s the thing… Jared said that when non white people move in, white people move out, is it hateful? No probably not. Is it Prejudicial? 100% yes! He proves it with his next sentence.

    They don’t have the cultural, ethnic, religious, or aesthetic continuity or what ever pretend intellectualism he was stating. So wait how did we suddenly jump ship to religious, ethnic, and culture? Seems like you are pre-judging them. There might be some prejudice in there. Maybe you’re intellectually honest and you have evidence that cultural jews or white muslims will move into an area with a different culture, and ethnic heritage, and other white people will move away from them… If you can’t or don’t, you’ve basically just said being prejudicial is not prejudice. 8 minutes in you are already tripping on your own feet.

    I’m scared to listen further. If I wanted to listen talk about how he isn’t a Nazi by fear mongering in the same way Nazis did… I’d listen to the U.S. President more.

  8. #8 by Ashley on January 22, 2019 - 07:41

    This is a great podcast series. Most previous episodes have had me hot under the collar (occasionally laughing), but this one gave me cold sweats – what a sly poisonous piece of work he is. As Dan Jacobs said – I can see many people saying “hmmm, he makes some reasonable points…”. Much more dangerous that the fire and brimstone of his breed.

  9. #9 by Anthony Kelly on January 22, 2019 - 16:18

    That was the most difficult listen that I’ve ever had with this show.

    Perhaps it’s easier to handle racist people when their mistruths are spoken fast and loud. Many people will be repelled not only by what they say but how they say it.

    When a racist speaks slowly and carefully, it is an altogether different and more dangerous animal.

  10. #10 by Max on January 22, 2019 - 16:41

    “We should hear his arguments”

    All these arguments have been repeated time and again in so many places over the centuries. Jared has had all these same talking points published in the Nazi journal “Sarastus”, and the same points have been made all over the place.

    “Never believe that anti‐ Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti‐Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side. ”
    – Jean-Paul Sartre. “Anti-Semite and Jew”. Pages 13-14, as cited on Wikiquote.

    I don’t think the format of Be Reasonable served the vanquishing of fascists like Jared Taylor.

  11. #11 by Dan Jacobs on January 22, 2019 - 17:08

    New people will be exposed to his filth, and new people will need to know how to refute it. If it was a simple matter of “ignore them and they’ll go away”, that would have happened.

    We literally had a World War over this, and a fairly good job of trying to wipe this out was done, but here we are again. The cycle and work to end it begins anew. Venues like Marsh’s podcast are a good platform for this work because he doesn’t let Jared get away clean with any of his claims. Marsh’s audience won’t either.

    In a perfect world we could always pick and choose the best venues for a particular topic. It’s not a perfect world. Someone’s gotta do this work, and I’m glad Marsh is one of them that tried. I think he did a good job.

  12. #12 by Diogenes on January 22, 2019 - 21:51

    Calling someone a fascist is not an argument. Fascism is “is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.” Simply to be a nationalist and “race realist” doesn’t complete the definition of fascist. What did he say that supports the idea he is a radical authoriarian wanting to suppress opposition?

    What he seems to be saying that whites have a right to advocate for their best interests as a racial group just as a hodgepodge of others such as blacks, hispanics, jews, and moslems advocate for their best interests.

    Max says “I don’t think the format of Be Reasonable served the vanquishing of fascists like Jared Taylor.” You are correct. Taylor makes a cogent argument. Perhaps a debate with an expert would be more effective than the host who has less information at his finger tips. Hilde wastes her opportunity to argue with an ad hominem attack. How about explaining why his arguments are poisonous.

    Citizen Gold says Jared, if you ever read these comments I’d just like to say that you are actually a racist.

    Do you think Taylor cares if you call him a racist? Calling him a racist is not an argument. Taylor is arguing that race does matter and forced mixing destroys cultures. For example when the Moors overran Spain it changed the culture permanently (ex. the Spanish word “ojala” comes from the Arabic “Allah grants”). Taylor wants to preserve European culture. You may disagree with him but calling him names doesn’t help others seeking good arguments against his viewpoint.

  13. #13 by Chris on January 23, 2019 - 00:40

    I am only at the beginning of this podcast. I find it hilarious that he did not know voting rights in the constitution were just for land owning white men. And for the census black slaves were counted as a fraction.

    For those interested there is a Radiolab series about all the amendments to the constitution, including those that granted Native Americans citizenship and let them practice their own religions. It comes with songs.. The one of the amendment granting women the right to vote is awesome.

    Even with Jared’s very annoying highfalutin accent trying to promote his own superiority, he falls flat on his face when it comes to history. I am sure in high school he failed both American history and government (which in my day was called “civics”).

  14. #14 by Chris on January 23, 2019 - 01:02

    Then after listening just a couple of minutes after posting my comment… I have discovered he has never ever taken a biology class in his life.

    Man, that accent is annoying.

    Oh, and the Most Perfect podcast song about women getting the vote is sung by Dolly Parton.

  15. #15 by Iain on January 23, 2019 - 03:49

    I have been listening to your podcasts for a few years now.

    Giving any platform to a person like this whose views have real world and potentially very dangerous consequences is beyond irresponsible. People like this are not like flat earthers or psychics or ghost hunters or whatever. Those guys are harmless and maybe even wacky. That leads to light hearted laughter and that’s about it.

    This person is different. This person is evil and these views can and have lead to violence and death. No platform should EVER be given to someone like him. In fact, as was stated at the beginning, you invited him. He didn’t come to you, you sought him out!

    This was a serious misstep in judgement. I am sorry but if you won’t refuse to give him a platform, then it comes down to me. With a heavy heart, I had to unsubscribe.

  16. #16 by Chris on January 23, 2019 - 17:04

    I respectfully disagree, Iain. It is a good thing to show how fractured the thinking is in a supposed “educated” man like Taylor is. I looked him up:

    The man actually grew up in Japan. So there may be a reason why he never fully got an education in American history and government, and biology. Perhaps he was shielded from that education by his parents.

    Obviously this is an argument for tax paid schools with full curricula as opposed to religious education. I also spent much of my youth outside of the USA, but as dependent of an US military officer. So my education was in secular schools for English speakers, and the ones in the former Panama Canal Zone were run by the Dept. of Defense. So yes, I had mind rage when Taylor went off on non-European or non-Japanese art of several centuries ago. Especially the pieces of pre-Colombian art that the Spanish melted for the gold. (1491 by Charles Mann is a very good read)

    It is a good thing to bring up his ignorance which he covers with that ridiculous accent and a very thin veneer of “civility”. Yes, he is dangerous. This is why we need to know who he is and how he works.

  17. #17 by Phil on January 23, 2019 - 21:23

    That was indeed a difficult listen, Marsh I often wonder how you keep your cool, but this guy!
    In an attempt to slightly lighten the mood, did anyone else’s thoughts turn to Cool Whip and family guy every time he said white?

  18. #18 by Iain on January 23, 2019 - 22:30

    Chris, thank you. Although I still disagree with you, you form your arguments well and articulate them clearly. Perhaps it is my own personal disgust towards such a person that makes me feel the way I do. My concern comes from people like him who might hear his arguments and swallow them. They could take his words as some sort of call to action and that is very dangerous.

    Again, thank you for your thoughts and how you word them.

  19. #19 by Citizen Gold on January 24, 2019 - 01:37

    @Diogenes: Do you think Taylor cares if you call him a racist?

    Whether he cares that I, personally, call him a racist, I couldn’t say. But in general, from the way he talks in this podcast, I would conclude that, yes, he cares about that.

    @Diogenes: Calling him a racist is not an argument.

    I didn’t present it as an argument.

  20. #20 by Citizen Gold on January 24, 2019 - 02:15

    Iain :
    This was a serious misstep in judgement. I am sorry but if you won’t refuse to give him a platform, then it comes down to me. With a heavy heart, I had to unsubscribe.

    “If you won’t refuse…”

    It’s a bit late for adding a conditional there, isn’t it?

    Also, it’s not like every podcast in the future is going to be with those that hold a position tantamount to hate speech.

    To unsubscribe for something that is now in the past and, in all likelihood, a one off thing, is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction. Don’t you think?

  21. #21 by Citizen Gold on January 24, 2019 - 02:19

    Iain :
    My concern comes from people like him who might hear his arguments and swallow them. They could take his words as some sort of call to action and that is very dangerous.
    Again, thank you for your thoughts and how you word them.

    I think the context of the forum would have to be taken into account too. I would like to think that the nature of Marsh’s listeners are a little more on the rational and critical thinking side of things.

    As I was listening I was thinking, a couple of times, that the arguments being presented seemed reasonable. But in the greater context of the discussion they were still abhorrent.

  22. #22 by Chris on January 24, 2019 - 02:20

    Thank you, Iain. I do understand how you feel.

  23. #23 by Jess on January 24, 2019 - 03:45

    I understand what Marsh and others are trying to do when they expose this kind of rubbish. But I wish there was a t least some mention, even in the intro, that considers the point of view of the experience of POC’s hearing this. People like Taylor are everywhere. This person is my landlord, or boss, or dentist or people I have to deal with every day. And if it’s not them, it’s people who think they’re progressive friends saying, “Oh, well I’m sure he didn’t mean it that way,” or “Are you sure? Maybe you’re being a little sensitive.” I couldn’t listen to much of it because I don’t need to seek out deep denigration. It is embedded everywhere.

  24. #24 by Max on January 25, 2019 - 15:39

    I was disappointed with seeing this published, and I was also disappointed with the response in the newest Skeptics with a K episode. While Marsh & co. responded to some criticism, much of the criticism being weak (“Jared is hateful and bigoted” applies to many other guests, yes, very true), they did not address the question of whether or not these white supremacist* views should be addressed with a format that permits them to speak at all, that permits them to use the platform at all.

    *Frankly what separates fascists from speech like that is organising, and Jared is/was a main speaker of the Awakening conference, so that line is getting so thin as to disappear:

    I think white supremacist views should be addressed. I think they should be analysed and and criticised. I think that should happen without giving them yet another channel to use for propagating their views. Accepting them as a guest, even on a show like Be Reasonable, is still accepting them as a guest, and that puts them closer to being an accepted voice among others in society.

    Like Marsh said in the episode of Skeptics with a K, Be Reasonable has a very small audience, and much of that audience thinks that these episodes are so vile as to be unlistenable. That’s very true, but that only means that the *mistake* of giving Jared Taylor a platform is less dangerous. That doesn’t make it less of a mistake.

    No platforming isn’t just about protecting poor infantilised listeners from being exposed to bad ideas, it’s also about letting these “ethno-nationalists” know that they are not welcome. That’s a psychological way of fighting against the right, and the more firmly the right internalises the idea that they are unwelcome and unaccepted, the better.

  25. #25 by Cappy Charlie on January 25, 2019 - 18:45

    Hearing the attempts to disguise the racism in soft language and disingenuous calls for the preservation of “culture” was incredibly interesting. I can only think of describing it as Trojan racism. A very different Be Reasonable, but a very worthwhile one in showing the new garb of old intolerance.

  26. #26 by Darren Hanks on January 25, 2019 - 22:05

    A hard episode to listen to, but giving Jared Taylor a platform to share his opinion can only be a good thing. You can tell people what a bigoted racist he is, or give him a microphone and he will demonstrate it so much better!

  27. #27 by Maria on January 25, 2019 - 22:59

    Sorry you had to endure this abuse, Michael. His contemptuous laugh and words, employed to overshadow his ignorance (but we are not fooled) at some of your valid and reasonable arguments is disgusting. Well done on keeping a cool head.

  28. #28 by Darren on January 26, 2019 - 18:29

    Gotta agree that this was one of the most difficult Be Reasonables to listen to. Even if he wasn’t arguing for white supremacy, I’d be hard pressed not to yell at him for calling everything he disagreed with “silly” or “stupid”. I’m always impressed with how Marsh can keep sounding so level-headed, no matter how brain dead or dishonest his interviewee is.

  29. #29 by Jim on January 27, 2019 - 01:55

    I’m only 12 minutes into this but in discussion about Toxteth, Brixton and Peterloo, Jared says “the idea that people are justified in rising up violently because the government has not somehow served them, or coddled them or made life better for them” is something he doesn’t consider a legitimate reaction. He was of course talking about the British government and it’s first world public services. I wonder if he is aware that this same British Government, providing education, protections and first world (for the time) services was rebelled against by a number of colonists who felt they were being poorly treated. Does he therefore reject the legitimacy of the USA?

  30. #30 by Another Max on January 27, 2019 - 14:09

    This was particularly difficult to listen through. So many triggers! So much smugness!

    “Be Reasonable” has often presented positions in a manner that, to my taste. left them too unchallenged. (All who feel the same about this episode: I recommend you listen to the “Skeptics with a K” episode right after this, where Marsh talks about that conflict.) That’s okay if it’s about alien abductions and stuff, but I’m glad that Marsh did challenge this guy’s views some more. I was worried there at first.

    One thing I would have liked to hear him be challenged on some more was his bit about how it’s perfectly okay to grant people who don’t want to live in an all-white society areas where they can mix while he and his buddies preserve their race. This can be turned around quite easily: Let him and his white buddies have their all-white reservartion while the rest of society keeps evolving. If it’s really all the same to him and he’s not a white supremacist, that should be okay, right?

  31. #31 by Roi on January 27, 2019 - 22:26

    Marsh, I appreciated your prelude in Skeptics with a K contextualizing your decision to talk to this white supremacist.
    If there is an appropriate platform for people like Jared this would be it, as his ahistorical, pseudoscienctific beliefs really are as far out there as a flat-earther.

    I’m not sure though, having listened to the episode, that it was as effective as other episodes, and with this kind of guest the ramifications are worse.

    When a guest says lizard-people control the planet, and you ask them who those people are and point out holes in their reasoning, we follow along quite easily.

    But when someone says race is a biological construct born of geographic isolation, or that the U.S. never defined Native Americans as anything but human, and that xenophobia and the like are simply modern words and revisions by leftists, it’s unfortunately harder to wrestle with in a podcast because these are simply lies.

    And generally you haven’t made the point to contradict guests’ versions of reality or ahistorical tidbits but the logical structure on which they base their worldview. He gishgalluped to the point where pointing out the falsehoods in his understanding of biology, US history and constitution (as others here pointed out), etc., was too much.

    The heavy focus on particulars and the US also didn’t play to your advantage because he could bring up details without a response. Often there was no other appropriate response other than saying, “your facts are wrong.” For example, when he said slaves were taught to read (there were laws forbidding them to! Frederick Douglass for gods sake), or when he talked about “white-flight” and the racism of white liberals, what kind of question of his logic could there be?

    These are things about which there is a body of scholarship explaining the racist and economic reasons whites in the US (liberal and conservative) choose to segregate (Ta-Nehisi Coates is a good source). But again this would just be pointing out Jared is lying or ignorant and that isn’t really the schtick with Be Reasonable, right?

    I think your questions about what is culture and music came closest to putting him on the spot.

    But in previous episodes you often stop and say, “let’s take these in order” or manage to deconstruct arguments that the guest has said. I noticed in this one, while you brought up counter-examples, etc., this was less the case. I could be wrong though and that it was only my impression because of how his atrocious views are much more present, accepted, and harmful, than say, a lizard-people conspiracy theorist.

  32. #32 by Mike on January 28, 2019 - 15:05

    As far as I know I’ve listened to every one of Be Reasonable’s interviews, but this is the first time I have ended up feeling physically nauseous.
    Ironic that, in the context of a discussion that broaches biological and cultural evolution, I end up thinking that the sooner Taylor and his ilk go extinct the better it will be for everybody else.

  33. #33 by Ash on February 2, 2019 - 19:06

    I never wanted to punch someone more in my life. I admire your restraint Mike.

  34. #34 by Chris on February 9, 2019 - 06:35

    While I also felt like the dude should be punched, I also felt a bit of pity for him. His segregationist attitude is preventing him from actually meeting and interacting with so many interesting people.

    As someone who loves to cook, I would hate to be constrained to the “whites only” cuisine he must adhere to. Though due to his early childhood in Japan he must not issues with Japanese cuisine. Though would he care for a Korean bibimbap? Or Persian Saffron Rice? How about some really good basmati rice?

    Heaven forbid he eat any barbecued ribs. A style of cooking that the Spaniards learned from the native folk of the Americas, who the conquistadors slaughtered in so many ways.

    Presently reading the The Chagres: River of Westward Passag by by John Easter Minter, published in 1948. Interesting read. My dad remembered reading it sixty years ago, and wanted to read it again. So my brother found a copy online and sent it to him. Unfortunately dad before finishing it, but I have it now, and am reading it… and it brings more insight to the thinking of the era just after WWII on those with dark skins.

    Africans who were involuntarily brought over as slaves and escaped to form their own communities are literally called “savages.” Especially when they join English pirates to steal from the Spanish colonial elite. It is a weird but informative read. I hope to finish it during our snowy week.

  35. #35 by Chris on February 9, 2019 - 06:40

    “Unfortunately dad before finishing it,”

    Should be “Unfortunately dad died before finishing it,”

    He as 91 years old. He led a good and interesting life, which provided us many stories.

  36. #36 by Mark on February 23, 2019 - 01:22

    “Whaaaaaiiiiteeee people”

  37. #37 by Robyn on March 18, 2019 - 17:56

    I thought I needed to listen to this as part of a process of trying to understand the terrible massacre that has just occurred in New Zealand.
    As many have already commented here, it’s a hard thing to listen. What absolutely floored me though was the out right lies.” White Americans never tried to exterminate native Americans” : “Southerners did not regard slaves as less than human” both of these can so readily be disproved. I do wish he had been asked where Native Americans would go if the US became the all white cultural utopia of his dreams.
    What seemed to me the most outrageous lie came right towards the end and thus wasn’t highlighted. He actually said that ” when the people of India wanted the British to go, they left”. This is such a massive denial of historical fact, and a complete repudiation of Gandhi, one of the most influential figures in world culture in the 20th century. It shows appalling disrespect to the millions of people who died in the struggle for self determination.

(will not be published)